Issues with the FAQ

[R]

When I saw that there was a FAQ it was pretty awesome. A lot of questions DO come up for people, and from what I can see it could very much be aimed to people outside the community, the "mundanes" as much as towards newcomers. That's a pretty nice move, and it's pretty extensive, covering a whole bunch of questions. It's definitely a considerable effort that went into it.
However, I think Wilderness could benefit a lot from revising the FAQ. I'll admit it was a tough read. The questions seem less like something non-therians (curious or not) would ask, and more like what we as therians/otherkin could imagine being asked, what we would ask ourselves. At the same time the answers are very terse and sometimes not very accurate...or useful. I've picked out some questions as examples of what I mean, and will offer suggestions as to how it could be improved.

1 - What is Therianthropy? and 2 - Is there a name for animal Kin that aren’t Therianthropes (Earthly animals)? Already in the first question we have the issue of definitions. First of all, as Kisota addressed there's a split between therians and otherkin which is based entirely on unofficial consensus. I've said what I had to say on this in the thread.

3 - What does the word “Therianthropy” mean? has a sort of pedantic answer. I'm gonna refer to the discussion in the definition thread again.

15 – I’ve heard the term ‘Trueform’ and ‘Theriotype’ used before, what are they? "Phenotype" is mentioned. I think that is a very Scientology-like appropriation, and in fact--given the actual meaning of the term--extremely inappropriate. Using "phenotype" implies the person physically has the form of their theriotype, because that's how it's used in biology. Using it for "theriotype" therefore INVERTS its meaning. Furthermore, I have barely even seen the term used anywhere, especially recently. It would be prudent for a fundamentally [intentionally] informative FAQ to acknowledge this, how it may have been used, and potentially why it isn't used anymore.

19 - Can Therians identify with more than one animal? Its answer makes absolutely no sense to me. What relevance does switching between forms have whatsoever? How does having more than one form contradict being a therian? Why does it necessarily make you an otherkin?

21 - What is a 'Howl'? "Usually these are held by Administrators and/or Staff". What defines "usually"? Anyone who has the ability to organize (and is old enough) does it. Sure it would make a ton of sense for community leaders to organize meetups pertinent to the sites they run, but a lot of the time I'd think people just meet up outside of any pseudo-formalized framework.

23 - What is 'Shifter-disease'? It's NOT Clinical Lycanthropy, no matter how much the answer claims it is. It was a mocking term originally referring to how some therians would grasp at straws attribute any and everything to shifting rather than it being a normal trait.

25 - What is a Daemon? Is this extremely relevant? How often is this relevant? And in how many cases is it just complete mumbo-jumbo? It doesn't seem like something that has any place or relation to identity-based concepts like otherkin or therians.

27 - What are Otaku-Kin? and 28 - What are Fiction-Kin? I coulda sworn the twain were the same. Have I missed something or is this just an arbitrary convenient schism? Speaking of which, on otherkin.net Lupa addresses them as "mediakin".

29 - What is a Furry? Isn't a furry at the core someone who is enthusiastic about and very into funny animals? Cartoons in particular? I feel like that bit is missing. It's STILL not all characters and fursuits. There's also a significant overlap with the therian/otherkin communities; probably mostly the latter.

30 - What relation do Daemons, Totems, Otaku-Kin and Furries have to Therianthropy? The answer to this answer made me happy.

31 - If I want to be a Therian/Otherkin, how I can convert myself into one? This also made me happy although it kinda miffed me that it took such beating around the bush to get to the point. I feel putting a simple "You can't." is in order at the very beginning, before explaining why. Answer first, then explain why, otherwise it's super ambiguous and someone reading the FAQ might not bother to read entire sections.

38 - I think I am a Therian, but I'm not sure... What can I do to find out? This and 39 - How I can be completely sure that I am a Therian? have pretty good answers.

40 - I think I am an animal.. but not an Earthly one (for example; a Dragon) am I still Therian? Again, refer to this thread.

42 - What is better, to be Therian or to be Human? This question is one of the more redundant ones. Its answer is too long-winded, too.

43 - What are the advantages/disadvantages of being a Therianthrope in the modern world? This question is downright offensive. NO. You can NOT just pick out advantages and disadvantages and pretend they apply to everyone. You can't even say that the idea of advantages or disadvantages itself even applies to therianthropy. This is perhaps the biggest NOPE I've seen in this FAQ. This is the kind of opinion matter that should be left out.

44 - What should I do, if I come across this behaviour from someone claiming to be Therian?; It's not the FAQ's place to dictate how to deal with others, trolls, crazies, or otherwise.

45 - I'm a Therian but my life might be affected negatively if I tell people what I am. How do I tell my friends/family/co-workers that I am a Therian? If I tell them they may think I am weird/crazy or stop talking to me. This is much better addressed in appropriate posts rather than a FAQ. Perhaps linking to a thread instead of cramming together a long-winded (but ultimately unfulfilling) answer would be more prudent.

Finally, I admit seeing the following line

Some information provided is matter of opinion and may differ elsewhere.

rubbed me the wrong way. I feel like answers that should be educating (and educated!) cannot be supplemented with opinions, especially not variable ones.

What I'm looking for here is not to pick the FAQ apart or destroy it or have it removed, but instead I would very much like to see it thoroughly revised and updated with more accurate definitions. We already have a good foundation here to work with; there's no need to reinvent the wheel and redo it from scratch, but, again, there's still rather a lot of work to be done on it in order to improve it and its intended function.
As it stands, I see the FAQ as it is as an alpha version. It's got flaws and bugs that need to be ironed out, but once we're past that, we'll have a pretty useful tool on our hands that can be easily invoked.

[Deleted]

The problem is things like otherkin and therian have no set definition, no matter how much people want to argue they do. They do not, you can go from one community of therians/otherkins to the next and their ideas of that those two things means can widely vary. Because of this, the FAQ literally cannot give a solid definition that is going to make everyone happy, unless they wanted to make an entire essay compiling all the "major" definitions people assign to these terms. We can all argue till we are blue in the face about this definitions issue but it is not going to get resolved, not until the community comes together as a whole and frankly I cannot see that happening in the near future, nor do I see why people are even trying to solidify a definition when they are both so fluid and nearly pointless anyway. If you believe you are non-human, and you want to call yourself a therian, do it, likewise for otherkin, but it realize it means something different for nearly everyone, and not everyone subscribes to the same definition. 

[Kisota]

I agree with much of what R is bringing up. An FAQ is a great resource and the attempt at such a comprehensive one is admirable.
But there are a lot of issues here. And not just issues of “people kinda disagree about this one definition.”

nor do I see why people are even trying to solidify a definition when they are both so fluid and nearly pointless anyway. If you believe you are non-human, and you want to call yourself a therian, do it, likewise for otherkin, but it realize it means something different for nearly everyone, and not everyone subscribes to the same definition.

I agree with this, actually! And I think that is why the FAQ should acknowledge when words do not have a consensus definition and
1) Describe different ways the words are used

2) Explain that this website uses a particular version of the definition for its own uses.

I also think the wording of “soul or mentality of” an animal is misleading, because it may exclude people who simply think they had past lives as animals but are not actually animals in soul, and the wording of “mentality of” an animal I think gives the wrong impression of therians who explain the phenomenon on a strictly rational basis.
I think this is also a good time to note that there are many, many places in this FAQ when words are needlessly capitalized, and it gives a kind of unprofessional air to the whole thing.
But, moving on, I think there are some other ways the FAQ can be improved! We should see if we can make it better. Here are some suggestions regarding the other questions:

2 - Is there a name for animal Kin that aren’t Therianthropes (Earthly animals)?
Again, depending on who you ask, “therian” is that word, but I don’t want to repeat myself too much here, other than to say that I think a very general FAQ should be fair enough to state that the website’s preferred definitions are not the historical nor the consensus ones.
The definitions of other types of creatures is… nice I guess, but is it needed? I’ve never seen these terms used anywhere else. If they are used for user groups or whatever here, it might be wise to clear that up. (And I’ve only ever seen that last term used as “theriomythic.”)

4 - I hear words like ‘Therianthropy’ used in different Contexts, which ways are they usually used?
Again with the needless capitalization. And maybe I’m out of touch, but I’ve never heard “theritype” before and I suspect it’s a spelling error… probably one we shouldn’t encourage, since theriotype is really a standard term with just one letter difference. 

5 - How do people find out if they are a Therianthrope (Therian)?
I have to admit I’m not a fan of statements of “most therians” that aren’t necessarily strictly accurate. I really don’t think these statements are very true. Also, many needlessly capitalized words here, and the term “therian kin” is really redundant.
The “how do people figure out they’re therians” question is also a really big one that might be better linked to a thread of experiences or one of the “how do I know if I’m a therian” articles that are out there.

6 - Why do Therian people exist? What is their origin?
This is a really weird question. Or maybe it’s just weirdly worded. Is “What causes therianthropy?” what this question is trying to get at? Either way, the answer has a lot of words that just… don’t really go anywhere. You could get the same meaning by simply saying “No one is quite sure, and causes may vary.”

7 - Are Therian people Role-Playing when say they are 'more than human'?
Why is the focus of this question on the phrase “more than human?” Frankly that phrase alone makes us sound kind of silly (and even egotistical). Maybe this could be reworded as “are therians just roleplaying?”

I also want to point out that therianthropy is not a belief. That phrasing comes up several times in this FAQ. A belief is an acceptance that something is true. I do not have to accept that it is true that I am a therian. It is true because I define myself that way because of my own experiences. Belief does not come into play. Therianthropy is a form of identity. People –may- have beliefs about the cause of therianthropic experiences… or they may only speculate, or not even worry about it at all. You don’t have to believe anything to be a therian… it’s not a belief.

8 - Does being Therian mean you are a member of a Cult, Sect or Religion? Do Therians worship Satan?
Careful with absolutist phrases. Remember, (generally!) only Siths speak in absolutes!
So saying “it has nothing to do with religious beliefs at all” may not be true for everyone. Therianthropy may be tied tightly to some people’s religious beliefs. Otherwise I think this answer is good (though the last sentence is unnecessary.)

9 - I am Religious, will my Therianthropy clash with my Religion?
I am not sure this question is necessary. But the answer is kind of awkwardly worded. I think it’s meant well. But this is also such a person question – whether having a therian identity conflicts with one’s religion… I’m not sure it really belongs in an FAQ. Because what else is there to say but “it doesn’t need to, but it might, and that’s for you to figure out”?

10 - Do Therians have any beliefs? What do they believe?
None of the supposed “common beliefs” are really beliefs that I share – these are not ways I would state how I feel about myself. And I know I’m not alone. I think this question would be a good place to state that no, there are no beliefs common to all therians. There is only a form of identity common to us all.
The phrasing “caused by the mind” is also hopelessly vague. And psychological explanations are not the only scientific-minded ideas behind the causes of therianthropy, so it might be good to explain more general ways of looking at it.

11 - Is being Therian considered to be a mental illness, or physical disorder?
Citation needed! And is this in the DSM? No? Then it’s not considered a disorder yet. There have been a few papers that have kind of thrown out the term as a possible way of describing such experiences, and it would be GREAT to say that and even provide a link to the paper! But don’t jump the gun.
Furthermore, as far as I know, not all therians experience dysphoria. Maybe a better way to answer this would be to say that no, it is not considered a mental illness and is not in fact inherently disorderly. But some therians may experience discomfort with being human (and then describe the uses of the term species dysphoria.) That last incomplete sentence in this answer is also unnecessary. People will know what species we’re talking about.

12 - Are Therianthropes dangerous people (will a wolf Therian be aggressive because of their wolf type)?
Might be wise to change type to “theriotype” to avoid confusion.
Otherwise this is a pretty good answer (though again, “animal beliefs” is poor phrasing and I’d highly recommend it be changed to identity).

13 - Are there different classifications for Therian people (not all Therian people are the same animal or species)?
I have no idea what this answer is referring to. What sub-species classifications are we talking about here?

14 - Do Therians have a symbol that identifies them as a Group/Community?
This is a confusing answer! By “Trinity Triangle” and “Eternal Circle” interwoven… I’m supposing you mean “theta-delta?” Because those symbols are not a Trinity triangle or eternal circle. They are literally the letters theta and delta. (Theta as in T for therian, and delta, denoting a change/shift).
I also hardly think we can claim “the pawprint” as a therian symbol. What pawprint? And that is such a general kind of symbol that it really is hard to use it in a way that says “therian.”

15 – I’ve heard the term ‘Trueform’ and ‘Theriotype’ used before, what are they?
Having all the old terms here too is cool. But like R said, this section really needs to describe the historic context of the terms and, in “phenotype”’s case, why we stopped using the term!
Again with the problem of saying a common “belief” is that our soul or “mentality” is not human. That is strong wording that I would not necessarily agree with. There are good ways to define these terms without getting into that issue, though.

16 - What is a 'Shift'? How many types of 'Shift' exist?
M-shift stands for mental shift, not mind shift.
I’ve also never heard of an s-shift. Is this a new way of explaining phantom shifts?

17 - I've heard some complex terms related to Therianthropy. For example Cladotherianthropy,
Contherianthropy, Cameoshift... Is it difficult to learn about Therianthropy? How many terms I should to learn?

Cladotherianthropy means identifying as an entire taxon or clade of animals. It is not limited to identifying as single genera. Genus does not mean “branch.” Genus is a particular taxonomic level right about “species.” A cladotherian might identify holistically as an entire genus but they also might identify as a whole family or even higher taxonomic levels…
The explanation of contherianthropy is really, really wordy and confusing. I think this section would benefit from talking to self-identified contherians on how to explain it.
I do, however, really like that “suntherian” is excluded, since it’s such a confusing term, and that you mention that it’s fine to just not worry about these terms at all. That’s really nice!

#18 is fine, I suppose.

19 - Can Therians identify with more than one animal?
(It’s AS, not with).
R already touched on this one. This answer is very confusing and possibly misleading.

20 - Can a Therianthrope have a Trueform that is a different gender/sex to their physical human body
(for example a woman that feels she is a male wolf)?

Asexual does not mean “both sexes.” And “sexuality” isn’t an appropriate word to use here. “Physical sex” is better. But this answer seems to get gender and physical sex mixed up…

21 - What is a 'Howl'?
R touched on this already. The safety tips are nice. But the bit about staff…? Is that specific to this site? Because otherwise it’s not really true.

22 - What is a Shapeshifter?
Why is the definition given here strictly spiritual?
Shouldn’t it be defined in a more general way as someone whose theriotype takes different forms?

23 - What is 'Shifter-disease'?
R got this one already. Yeah. Lycanthropy =/= shifter’s disease.

24 - What is a 'Phantom Limb'?
What is this soul shift thing again? And why is it being touted as “usually” being the cause of a phantom shift? I also notice “kin” is now being used instead of “therian.” Why is that?
And that last sentence is confusing. Maybe what you’re trying to say is that phantom limbs have not been shown to exist in therians the same way they do in amputees and people diagnosed with supernumerary phantom limbs?

25 - What is a Daemon?
This really isn’t directly relevant to therianthropy.  I think it would be good to mention that up front.
Some citations here would be nice as well, and maybe a statement about how it’s not something directly related to therianthropy.

26 - What is a Totem?
The definition given here just really isn’t very good… This section should probably be expanded and given citations.
Skipping the otakukin and fictionkin things since R touched on those. Might be good to talk about why the term otakukin isn’t much used anymore.

29 - What is a Furry?
Also not a very great definition. Being a furry doesn’t mean having a character/fursona.
And a therian who has an animal character they use as an alter ego is almost certainly a furry. It may be wise to explain that there is overlap between the communities but they are not the same thing.
Again with the irksome “defining belief” thing.

I think #30 should be mentioned up front in the questions about daemons and furries if those questions are going to be included. It could even be made into one question.

31 - If I want to be a Therian/Otherkin, how I can convert myself into one?
It’s good to note that you can’t really just turn yourself into a therian. Glad this FAQ does that.
But I think this section could benefit from an expansion into how some think it’s something you are born as and others think it’s an identity that can form over time (not consciously).
And please… don’t say that therianthropy is above all a belief. :/

# 32 and 33 are mostly okay.

34 - Does being Therian mean you have special powers (like better sight or hearing, the ability to fly,
balance better or run faster)?
It’s good to point out that we don’t have special powers. It may also be good to point out that shifts could have psychosomatic effects (adrenaline rushes, increased heartbeat, etc)… and those sorts of things actually could help people focus or run faster.

# 35 is mostly okay. It would be cool to have links here to articles speculating about why there are so many wolves.

36 - Do Therianthropes behave like the animal they identify with (will a bear Therian always behave like a bear)?
This answer means well but I think the wording is a little off (and could even come across to people who for other reasons don’t act “as their society dictates.”)
The next few are fairly alright.

39 - How I can be completely sure that I am a Therian?
I’ll spare you all my rant on “proof” in biological contexts. But the real issue here to mention is that you don’t “know” you’re a therian in the way we know that germs cause disease, because it’s a subjective experience and subjective “knowing” is different.
So, yeah, science cannot refute the existence of such subjective experiences. And there are no hard scientific studies yet into biological explanations of it. But the wording here is kind of awkward. Of course there’s no way to objectively determine the existence of a subjective experience…

I’m going to leave #40 alone. I’ve said plenty about how I feel about the strict enforcement of non-consensus definitions.

# 42 (What is better, to be Therian or to be Human?) is just a weird question. Also the wording is awful, because it implies therians are not human. The end where it says “better to be both” is again, kind of egotistical sounding since anyone who’s a therian IS both!
R touched on #43. I’m also not a fan of these questions that seem to speak for everyone.

44 - What should I do, if I come across this behaviour from someone claiming to be Therian?;
Misuse of term fictive.
Also the “No True Scotsman” fallacy! “No true therian says this stuff!” But who are you to revoke their identity because they said something stupid? I understand the sentiment, but very bad way of addressing it here.

45 - I'm a Therian but my life might be affected negatively if I tell people what I am. How do I tell my
friends/family/co-workers that I am a Therian? If I tell them they may think I am weird/crazy or stop
talking to me.
Does advice belong in an FAQ? I’m not sure. But advice of this sort is, I think, probably best left to be addressed by the particular situation at hand. It’s a good attempt, but maybe the advice could be restated as possible suggestions?

Anyhoo, it’s a long FAQ with some good content! I’d love to see it with citations and some corrections, etc. Heck, I’d even be really happy to help re-write it! Maybe we could get it going and have a feedback thread always going to the community can continue to critique and improve it?

We've got the beginnings of a great community resource here and I think if we work together we can make it really awesome.

[Seraphyna]

Mar 26, 2015 21:38:43 GMT @mountainmoss said:

The problem is things like otherkin and therian have no set definition, no matter how much people want to argue they do. They do not, you can go from one community of therians/otherkins to the next and their ideas of that those two things means can widely vary. Because of this, the FAQ literally cannot give a solid definition that is going to make everyone happy, unless they wanted to make an entire essay compiling all the "major" definitions people assign to these terms. We can all argue till we are blue in the face about this definitions issue but it is not going to get resolved, not until the community comes together as a whole and frankly I cannot see that happening in the near future, nor do I see why people are even trying to solidify a definition when they are both so fluid and nearly pointless anyway. If you believe you are non-human, and you want to call yourself a therian, do it, likewise for otherkin, but it realize it means something different for nearly everyone, and not everyone subscribes to the same definition. 

Otherkin has had a definition for over 20 years...to refer to people who identify as non human. Therian has also had a definition that has now evolved into two primary definitions. Yes, some places go by their own definitions...but that doesn't mean other definitions should be treated as other definitions. People constantly want to change what words mean in order to fit because they think it's a fad. Doesn't mean you have to use either term, but the terms definitely have meanings.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2015 3:13:59 GMT Seraphyna said:

Otherkin has had a definition for over 20 years...to refer to people who identify as non human. Therian has also had a definition that has now evolved into two primary definitions. Yes, some places go by their own definitions...but that doesn't mean other definitions should be treated as other definitions. People constantly want to change what words mean in order to fit because they think it's a fad. Doesn't mean you have to use either term, but the terms definitely have meanings.

I, for one, agree with @mountainmoss. However, I would like to point out that these meanings of these terms are unique to each person. One can't dictate what others think of themselves. If one person thinks of themselves as otherkin because of reasons they chose to go by, someone can't tell them "no, you're not otherkin because you don't fit into the strict, set definition of rules." They can chose what to believe themselves as, and as long as they think they fit into the general set of what makes an otherkin an otherkin, then okay, they're otherkin. If they don't fit according to someone else's idea of otherkin, then they should kindly explain what it is [to them], but I don't think anyone should dictate/restrict the boundaries of what otherkin is.

[Seraphyna]

Mar 27, 2015 4:03:31 GMT @ticrona said:

Mar 27, 2015 3:13:59 GMT Seraphyna said:

Otherkin has had a definition for over 20 years...to refer to people who identify as non human. Therian has also had a definition that has now evolved into two primary definitions. Yes, some places go by their own definitions...but that doesn't mean other definitions should be treated as other definitions. People constantly want to change what words mean in order to fit because they think it's a fad. Doesn't mean you have to use either term, but the terms definitely have meanings.

I, for one, agree with @mountainmoss. However, I would like to point out that these meanings of these terms are unique to each person. One can't dictate what others think of themselves. If one person thinks of themselves as otherkin because of reasons they chose to go by, someone can't tell them "no, you're not otherkin because you don't fit into the strict, set definition of rules." They can chose what to believe themselves as, and as long as they think they fit into the general set of what makes an otherkin an otherkin, then okay, they're otherkin. If they don't fit according to someone else's idea of otherkin, then they should kindly explain what it is [to them], but I don't think anyone should dictate/restrict the boundaries of what otherkin is.

If words don't have meaning, what's the point of words? One doesn't choose what a banana is just like one doesn't choose what an artist is. Same principle. Either "otherkin" fits or it doesn't...and if it does you use it or you don't. Same goes for therian.

[R]

This...thread...isn't about the defintions of the terms, guys, it's about the FAQ. There's a whole different thread for the definitions of the terms, which I linked a couple times in the original post specifically to avoid derailment like this.

[Kisota]

Yes. Please, guys... if you're going to get hung up on the definitions thing, we've got a whole thread for it. And I'd be actually really happy to get the discussion going there again, have someone address my last post, etc.

But there's a ton of food for thought in this thread about the FAQ... Any thoughts about other points brought up? There are even a few factual errors.

[Deleted]

In regards to the FAQ... I haven't had a time to sit down and look through everything that's been brought up in these threads. I fully intend to do some "catching up" on the forums this weekend and will post some replies later (work's been... busy), but I wanted to jump in to point out that a lot of what I have seen here can be understood to be a bit "out of date" due to the constantly evolving nature of the community. I believe the original post was made in 2010.

Kisota, I definitely agree that the FAQ is quite comprehensive and could make a great community resource with a bit of a touch up.

As far as the definitions go, yeah we have another thread going on that one... but in relation to that particular part of the FAQ, I think that the preexisting definition serves well as it represents the majority opinion (at least that's my interpretation of the popularity of the definitions... would be interesting to see some statistics). I agree that it could be reworded to note that there are other definitions for the differences between therians and otherkin... but I think ultimately if we were going to reword the FAQ it should be reworded to reflect the fact that Therians are a subset of Otherkin, and that neither group is "more legitimate/real" than the other... if somebody is asking what a "therian/otherkin" are... that's a very relevant piece of information. Any veteran of the community isn't going to need that question answered, except in the context of debating definitions (as was the topic of the other thread).

Both Otherkin and Therian, no matter the defining matter of their separation, deal with internal identities for various personal reasons... and I think that's what should be stressed as far as the FAQ goes. As Sera mentioned it would be impossible to describe all the definitions, but I think that's the best route for clarifying/updating/rewording that portion of the FAQ. Give a common definition, note that there isn't a full consensus everywhere and point out that no matter the definition, Therians are Otherkin and not some "special club". Besides, thinking that I'm a wolf is just as "nuts" to the common person as thinking one is an elf, dragon, etc. *shrugs*

I'll probably chime in more once I relax, catch up on sleep and get some tea. :)

[Kisota]

I do feel a little bad because I'd somehow overlooked the revisions thread that is in this subforum (in which Sera makes a lot of the same points we've made here)...

But despite the revision thread existing, it seems like no revisions have been made and the suggestions were largely just being dismissed anyway.

[Kasumi Noxumbra]

I'll have to bring this up with the other staff members. Since we've had a lack of staff actually doing much, we're in the process of getting additional staff to help keep up with this stuff. Mostly it's been between me, Haru, and occasionally Thala and Doppel, when they have the free time to do so, to keep up with all the forum upkeep. Haru's been chugging away at college, I've been dealing with my family as my dad is getting worse as the days pass, so both of us have been extremely busy. Anyways, like I said I'll have to bring this back up about the FAQs in a staff PM to see what we can do about getting it fixed to be better.