Sanctuary Suggestion

[TwoFox]

Cayo

The idea isn't really about separating the forum into a mature focused section and an immature unfocused section but more of a board for heavy mature topics that can't really be discussed around people thirteen years of age, and it's something I've seen on some of the other forums I've looked at and been on. At least as far as I can tell anyway.

[Cayo]

TwoFox Ah! Okay I understand a bit better now. Just, from what I gathered that was what it seemed to be like. Thanks for elaborating on the idea for me, I appreciate that!

[Haru'Shimo]

... I'll try to keep this short, but since I'll likely fail, I apologize in advance for my habitual walls of text. It seems I do my best thinking when I have to slow my thoughts enough to type them. The situation we've come to is a de facto conflict between trying/wanting to accommodating "Everyone" and naturally separate groups at the same time. Overall this forum has managed to be a great place to meet that paradox for years. We don't want to "Divide" the community, but in reality it already is divided, just not by any titles that say so.

Those who once came here seeking answers, reason, understanding, debate, and spiritual/intellectual growth concerning their Therianthropy/Otherkin state of being have faded to the background as the forums slowly transition into another hangout for furries and therian fandom, effectively negating the point of it being here in the first place. Many of them still lurk in the shadows, possibly hoping the tide of ignorance will recede, but more than likely because this site remains one of, if not the best refuge for Therians who still want to understand how and why, rather than just coming here for the comfort of someplace to 'fit in'. I don't want to bash 'new' or 'young' members by any means. I very distinctly remember the beginning of my walk down this road; the fears, desire for acceptance, enthusiasm at its reception, conclusions jumped to without reason, the misguidance I was led by. Had I found this forum then, I may have avoided years of misdirection.

But, at some point in healthy maturity you move past the phase of needing a group to belong to, establish a sense of self and individuality, and in our case, should either desire to understand yourself on a deeper level, or accept it as a piece of who you are and move on with your life. As I've seen happen time and again watching the community throughout my own development, those are the two paths that mature members usually take, the rest 'grow out' of Therianthropy as a phase, a short, interesting chapter in their otherwise mundane lives.

We've strived to be an open source for all, but at the same time steadily established rules to ensure those that participate here do so for mutual benefit. Doing so has resulted in actions taken against individuals who've not been beneficial to the original goal of the forum. To that end, we are somewhat 'elitist' if you care to call it that. We're here to help those who desire to help themselves, not to carry and cater to those who only want to 'play Therian' and be around people who make them feel accepted. Those such people are the cause that has prompted the desire for a 'separate' area for mature members.

If I'm not mistaken in this understanding, then perhaps it's not an adult section we need, but a clear re-definition of the rules and standards expected of members of the forums, a straight and plainly visible declaration of what this forum is here FOR, and proper enforcement of the standards set in place.

If this forum is here so anyone who fleetingly thinks they might be kin can hang out and fool around with others like them, then we're well on the right track. If this place has a greater purpose in being here than Facebook, then maybe it's time that purpose was clarified.

If anyone disagrees with any of what I've said, then by all means, speak up and let me know. I'm here to expand my understanding and help others do the same.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2014 17:07:04 GMT Haru'Shimo said:

If I'm not mistaken in this understanding, then perhaps it's not an adult section we need, but a clear re-definition of the rules and standards expected of members of the forums, a straight and plainly visible declaration of what this forum is here FOR, and proper enforcement of the standards set in place.

If this forum is here so anyone who fleetingly thinks they might be kin can hang out and fool around with others like them, then we're well on the right track. If this place has a greater purpose in being here than Facebook, then maybe it's time that purpose was is clarified.

If anyone disagrees with any of what I've said, then by all means, speak up and let me know. I'm here to expand my understanding and help others do the same.

Mmmm.

I started out well in favour of an adult section on the forum. It sounded like that magical corner in my mind were I can sit here at this desk and let lose my mind for a little while, but I have seen otherwise now, and due to this and this only, I changed my mind. Speaking on my behalf, while the youngsters put me off ever attempting to start a deep conversation with them, it is not the age nor maturity that I seek in someone to establish what sort of level of conversation I'll be able to have with them. I realised, after looking inside of me for a little while, that I seek no one, regardless of how willingly they are to talk, and how good they are at holding a great conversation. In the end, it all bores me to speak and type words, when I know I will never be able to share what's inside of me with anyone on a grander scale than human communication and earthly physics. So I'll stay quiet like I always do, needing not an adult section to help me talk, as a matter of fact needing nothing but my own dark corner, just being here and see the world change.

[Haru'Shimo]

May 14, 2014 18:38:03 GMT @kharu said:

Mmmm.

I started out well in favour of an adult section on the forum. It sounded like that magical corner in my mind were I can sit here at this desk and let lose my mind for a little while, but I have seen otherwise now, and due to this and this only, I changed my mind. Speaking on my behalf, while the youngsters put me off ever attempting to start a deep conversation with them, it is not the age nor maturity that I seek in someone to establish what sort of level of conversation I'll be able to have with them. I realised, after looking inside of me for a little while, that I seek no one, regardless of how willingly they are to talk, and how good they are at holding a great conversation. In the end, it all bores me to speak and type words, when I know I will never be able to share what's inside of me with anyone on a grander scale than human communication and earthly physics. So I'll stay quiet like I always do, needing not an adult section to help me talk, as a matter of fact needing nothing but my own dark corner, just being here and see the world change.

9_9.. Well, my intention wasn't to put anyone off talking period.
Overall I just ended up trying to point out that the whole forums should be a perfectly adult/mature place to discuss and be, and that it's gradually moving away from that point into a more casual hang-out. While I may not like that trend, this isn't my forums to attempt to change, so I'm putting out my idea of what it is/was/should be to see if others agree or disagree.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2014 5:31:16 GMT Haru'Shimo said:

May 14, 2014 18:38:03 GMT @kharu said:

Mmmm.

I started out well in favour of an adult section on the forum. It sounded like that magical corner in my mind were I can sit here at this desk and let lose my mind for a little while, but I have seen otherwise now, and due to this and this only, I changed my mind. Speaking on my behalf, while the youngsters put me off ever attempting to start a deep conversation with them, it is not the age nor maturity that I seek in someone to establish what sort of level of conversation I'll be able to have with them. I realised, after looking inside of me for a little while, that I seek no one, regardless of how willingly they are to talk, and how good they are at holding a great conversation. In the end, it all bores me to speak and type words, when I know I will never be able to share what's inside of me with anyone on a grander scale than human communication and earthly physics. So I'll stay quiet like I always do, needing not an adult section to help me talk, as a matter of fact needing nothing but my own dark corner, just being here and see the world change.

9_9.. Well, my intention wasn't to put anyone off talking period.
Overall I just ended up trying to point out that the whole forums should be a perfectly adult/mature place to discuss and be, and that it's gradually moving away from that point into a more casual hang-out. While I may not like that trend, this isn't my forums to attempt to change, so I'm putting out my idea of what it is/was/should be to see if others agree or disagree.

Yes, as a matter of fact I am well aware of that. Your comment was straight to the point and informative, no need to second explain yourself.

[Deleted]

Personally I have to say that it really angers me when somebody judges me based on my age, 15. I believe that there is a huge difference between age and maturity. I've met 10-year-olds who engage in intelligent conversations with me and 30-year-olds that act like young children. While I understand how somebody would want to have a section for "adult" conversation, I really believe that you can't put a certain age limit to it. Personally I'm all for a section dedicated to intelligent or "adult" conversation. In fact, I'd love to be part of it. I guess all I'm saying is, those who actually WANT to engage in such conversation should be allowed to, regardless of age.

[Haru'Shimo]

@thread and All Future Readers:

At this time this thread is a moot point, as the other moderators and I are working with the Admin to get the entire site back to the way it was at its inception; Encouraging mature conversation of meaningful topics and appropriate actions against those who seek to disrupt that. We're looking for the most fair and simple ways to do that, so in the next few weeks we may be showing the idea's we've proposed to the rest of the forum for feedback.

[Deleted]

May 22, 2014 21:28:25 GMT aria said:

Personally I have to say that it really angers me when somebody judges me based on my age, 15. I believe that there is a huge difference between age and maturity. I've met 10-year-olds who engage in intelligent conversations with me and 30-year-olds that act like young children. While I understand how somebody would want to have a section for "adult" conversation, I really believe that you can't put a certain age limit to it. Personally I'm all for a section dedicated to intelligent or "adult" conversation. In fact, I'd love to be part of it. I guess all I'm saying is, those who actually WANT to engage in such conversation should be allowed to, regardless of age.

I understand that age and maturity are different things, that happen at different times with different people. On another note, if I had to subtract my age from someone who is fifteen, take that number and subtract it from fifteen, it would mean that the fifteen year old would be attempting to discuss something with someone at the age of three. While age might not directly or indirectly have an effect on maturity, experience is something directly related to age, or is most likely to be, as it accumulates over one's lifetime. I don't have a problem with looking at someone who is forty and seeing them as more experienced and mature individuals than myself. Certainly will have the potential to be at the very least, if not, then they wouldn't be allowed on here to begin with.

At a certain age you stop wanting to discuss complicated topics with people much younger than yourself, and this is not something young people have the capacity to fully understand until they reach that certain age themselves.

[Deleted]

May 23, 2014 4:49:26 GMT @kharu said:

At a certain age you stop wanting to discuss complicated topics with people much younger than yourself, and this is not something young people have the capacity to fully understand until they reach that certain age themselves.

Personally I have to say I disagree with you. I basically reached that point in seventh grade. In fact, I really don't even associate myself with my age group and those younger than me at all anymore. There is no set age for that to happen, so please refrain from saying that there is. No offense to you, but I do feel like people with that kind of atitude are like the older teens I know who always treat me like I have no idea what they're talking about, when in fact I have every idea what they're speaking of.

Of course, there is also yet another side to this. As an otherkin, my spirit is older than I am by 12 years. With that being the case, who are you to judge me or anyone else based on yearly human age? Just something to think about there.

[Deleted]

May 23, 2014 15:46:22 GMT aria said:

May 23, 2014 4:49:26 GMT @kharu said:

At a certain age you stop wanting to discuss complicated topics with people much younger than yourself, and this is not something young people have the capacity to fully understand until they reach that certain age themselves.

Personally I have to say I disagree with you. I basically reached that point in seventh grade. In fact, I really don't even associate myself with my age group and those younger than me at all anymore. There is no set age for that to happen, so please refrain from saying that there is. No offense to you, but I do feel like people with that kind of atitude are like the older teens I know who always treat me like I have no idea what they're talking about, when in fact I have every idea what they're speaking of.

Of course, there is also yet another side to this. As an otherkin, my spirit is older than I am by 12 years. With that being the case, who are you to judge me or anyone else based on yearly human age? Just something to think about there.

It's wonderful for people to disagree with me, there's more room for conversation that way.

Though, lets just agree to disagree here my fellow forum dweller. No need to get wound up on a little difference in ideas. I have no doubt you are a very smart individual, regardless of your age, which I didn't judge your level of maturity on (as described in my original reply). I think it wasn't necessary to compare your spirit age with, me? I mean, yeah it's the same age as me actually, which is a little funny when you think about were this conversation has started to head, but if you want to play this game, what if I told you that my current universal connections (I believe) are hundred of years older than my little human self? I'm not revving my engine here, peace. x

[Seraphyna]

If you ask me 'spirit age' is meaningless. We don't even know souls, etc. exist...so to then thinking the 'age' of this dubious thing is somehow meaningful is logically flawed in my eyes. It *is* a simple fact that there are things people *cannot* understand unless they themselves have experienced them. Some of these are age related. Just a fact of life.

[Haru'Shimo]

May 23, 2014 15:46:22 GMT aria said:

May 23, 2014 4:49:26 GMT @kharu said:

At a certain age you stop wanting to discuss complicated topics with people much younger than yourself, and this is not something young people have the capacity to fully understand until they reach that certain age themselves.

Personally I have to say I disagree with you. I basically reached that point in seventh grade. In fact, I really don't even associate myself with my age group and those younger than me at all anymore. There is no set age for that to happen, so please refrain from saying that there is. No offense to you, but I do feel like people with that kind of atitude are like the older teens I know who always treat me like I have no idea what they're talking about, when in fact I have every idea what they're speaking of.

Of course, there is also yet another side to this. As an otherkin, my spirit is older than I am by 12 years. With that being the case, who are you to judge me or anyone else based on yearly human age? Just something to think about there.

Calm down Aria.
No one is judging anyone else on the forums, but by being overly defensive about perfectly civil discussions, you create a negative image of your current maturity, so you're not helping your case right now.

These were merely ideas being given as to how to set something like an adult section up.
We've already come to the conclusion that such a section is not needed, and instead aim to make the entire forums fit for the kind of conversation that was meant to be here in the first place.
At the moment, how we aim to do that is simply clarification of the rules and better enforcement of them, leaving the age restriction at 13 per ProBoards Terms of Service.
Don't prove that decision to be wrong by being immature.

As Seraphyna stated, anyone's claimed spiritual age is irrelevant. Even taking Reincarnation as fact (which it's unproven, even if I believe in it personally), every member is currently in a new body, a new life, and a new splinter of consciousness apart from their whole self, which means you grow, experience, and mature separately now, despite how long your spirit has been around. This fact is evident in EVERY living creature on the planet. Even religions who's main philosophical pillars are reincarnation and Karma say the same, working most of their lives to reach enlightenment and the full realization of their whole selves. I feel VERY safe in saying no one here has managed that.

So once again, chill. Offensive and Defensive aggression over differences in opinion and ideas show lack of patience and immaturity.
Every member here is assessed on how they say things, not their age, physical or spiritual.

[Deleted]

@haru'Shimo

No one is judging anyone else on the forums, but by being overly defensive about perfectly civil discussions, you create a negative image of your current maturity, so you're not helping your case right now.

I want you to know I have succeed in the making of the effort needed to not point this out, and spark a funny war were I'm fighting with water balloons against someone's, erm, defensive armaments. Now though, you held back less than me I see.

[Deleted]

Well I'm very sorry if I came across as rude or defensive/offensive, as I was merely trying to state my own opinion/trying to make a point. Please forgive my behavior.

[Haru'Shimo]

@kharu
^_^; I noticed, and I appreciate the effort.
Not to undermine anyone, but I've had to make some minor changes to my personality lately. I've spent most of my 'adult' life so far being overly accommodating and trying to please everyone, and it's only gotten me walked on. I still hold very strongly to having patience and tact, but I'm about done sugar coating things.


aria
No harm done, so don't worry about it.
Everyone's points have been made, so we'll move on to better things.
I also apologize if came across as being harsh, but I want everyone here to have equal opportunity to learn and grow. Occasionally it takes a little bitter truth to do that, and I'll employ it when needed.
I'd much rather make people take a step back and think than needlessly remove anyone who has the opportunity to look at themselves and become better for the experience.

We're working on making the rules easier for us to enforce, but that doesn't mean we're trying to find ways to get rid of people.
Either way, after a final revision we're going to put them up publicly so everyone can review them, express their opinions and ask to appeal something if it seems unfair.

[Telegdrian]

May 24, 2014 17:18:28 GMT Haru'Shimo said:

@kharu
^_^; I noticed, and I appreciate the effort.
Not to undermine anyone, but I've had to make some minor changes to my personality lately. I've spent most of my 'adult' life so far being overly accommodating and trying to please everyone, and it's only gotten me walked on. I still hold very strongly to having patience and tact, but I'm about done sugar coating things.

Good for you. It can take a long time to realize that you don't have to make decisions about your life to please others. It's your life. Do what is best for you.

[Doppel]

UPDATE: The "Veteran Section" is definitely happening.

We're still working things out on making guidelines about it and having a public review before it's being implemented. But we're going to be as quick as possible this time due to many PMs about it.


Basic Details (that may change in the few days):

• The board will be visible to all members.
• But only accounts with "Veteran Status" can post in them.

This allows knowledge and good discussions to still be readable to all members, and set a good example for everyone.

• Gaining "Veteran Status" can be done in many ways
• One way is to be a very good member of the community.
• Another way could be the length of your stay and activity.
• We're still discussing most of these

We'll get a draft in the air soon enough.

[Deleted]

Aug 8, 2014 3:57:46 GMT Doppel said:

UPDATE: The "Veteran Section" is definitely happening.

We're still working things out on making guidelines about it and having a public review before it's being implemented. But we're going to be as quick as possible this time due to many PMs about it.


Basic Details (that may change in the few days):

• The board will be visible to all members.
• But only accounts with "Veteran Status" can post in them.

This allows knowledge and good discussions to still be readable to all members, and set a good example for everyone.

• Gaining "Veteran Status" can be done in many ways
• One way is to be a very good member of the community.
• Another way could be the length of your stay and activity.
• We're still discussing most of these

We'll get a draft in the air soon enough.

Hm. Awesome news. This post ended up being way longer than I thought it would be... but I've got some ideas based on what you posted that I wanted to air for consideration. You guys have probably already thought about some (or all) of them, but maybe you'll still find the post useful. Here goes:

I like the idea of making it visible to all members (really like that idea, almost entirely stops the segregation)... it would remove the "I wonder what it is they talk about in there anyway" thoughts from members without access and still allow them to gain personal or spiritual insight from those conversations... and then, if something sparked their mind they could create a thread elsewhere to get feedback on it. It's also very consistent with Haru's view of what the site should be, which is to say (paraphrase incoming), open for everyone to explore themselves and their experiences and to share and read others'.

As for gaining veteran's status I think ultimately the staff should still review people on a case by case basis within the conditions you guys put out (if it's not too much work for you guys, that is). That seems like the most direct way of insuring that the forums fulfill that purpose. I'm pretty new to these forums myself, though I take my personal development, identity and thoughts very seriously and would welcome a section like this (even if I wouldn't be able to post there at first, I would definitely be willing to wait). The concept of an open site meant to inform and help people develop themselves, as well as the goal to provide the general public with an informative view into the culture was originally why I was drawn to these forums in the first place when I read about the site somewhere else (Project shift, perhaps? I forget). This is certainly a way to buffer against the "casual" crowd, while still leaving everything open.

Just an idea I'll throw out there to see what you guys think about it - given that the goal of this part of the forum, as I perceive it, would be to provide a place for serious discussion about certain topics without a crowd of less serious participants interrupting... why not provide a second forum (or a subforum) where those without access to the main forum can ask questions about topics posted in the main forum (not sure if this would be covered in the main ask a question section or not so I wanted to throw this out there). This way, members who have yet to be approved will still be able to take part in the discussion in some way or contribute their thoughts. You could ensure this doesn't become flooded with the same trend by making replies to these threads limited to the thread creator and veteran members? Or perhaps leave it open. I don't know, just throwing some ideas at you guys. It might be a bit redundant and complicated, but I just thought from the eyes of a serious member who didn't have veteran's status... it would both provide a great way to "prove" themselves and stop the wall of "they're talking about this issue, I really want to weigh in but I can't".

Additionally, such a subforum could help prevent some of the newcomers and younger members from getting a feeling that they have to sit at the "kids' table" for awhile (just using a metaphor here). Again... I haven't been here long enough to see exactly what you mean since I haven't had the pleasure of seeing the forum develop... but I'll take it from you guys when you say that this is a serious issue.

I've definitely noticed that within this forum and others I've joined that there's a running trend of older members creating threads or posts complaining about how things have died down, or how senior members are leaving, how people use the communities like hangouts, etc. That was a concern for me since I originally decided to become active within the Therian/Otherkin community for the opportunity at self growth and development, rather than as a place to "fit in" (though that was a very pleasant thing as well).

Now, this post is getting pretty long but I'll wrap it up by speaking a bit about the (and it'll come up) fear of elitism segregating the forum goers. I personally haven't noticed anyone "throwing their weight around" on any forum I've went to. I believe that this wouldn't cause an issue since you guys are probably going to mention that veteran status doesn't make you "better", "higher rank", etc. than anyone else... I think you guys should be very strong on that, since anyone who acted in that way would most definitely be proving their lack of maturity and bringing into question whether they should hold such a status. In a sense, I think you guys should treat this particular status like a moderator status, with all the considerations that go with it.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 on the idea... I'm sure you guys have considered a lot of what I've written, but I hope it helps in some way! I love the concept Doppel... just trying to pitch in with the elaboration and execution!

Cheers!

[Kasumi Noxumbra]

I think I can agree with a lot of what Lithillian said in his post. The only thing I'm unsure of is the subforum since it possibly wouldn't be moderated nearly as much as here. I do like the idea of having a Veteran status and letting all members be able to see the board that holds threads/posts from Veteran status members. Granted I know regardless we'll have probably a few members that will complain, but like Lithillian said and I quote, "anyone who acts in this way would be proving their lack of maturity and bringing into question whether they should hold such a status". If I think of anything though I'll add it here.

[bonobo]

I've frequented several forums that have subforums which are accessible to members only through specific invitation. If you are even remotely selective about whom you invite to such an environment, no one else really ever need know it exists, as it won't even show up on the subforum list unless you can get in. Just a thought.

[Kasumi Noxumbra]

For those who are keeping tabs on this, here is the board where you can find updated information about what we are doing to make this happen: therian-wilderness.proboards.com/board/42/sanctuary

Also the new section is setup to allow all members to view it(this is so nothing important is kept from anyone who may benefit from it), but only the members who meet the requirements can post.

[Zephyr]

I was going to suggest a password system for a mature board but I think this is all sorted now